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Does anyone know if the battery from CATL will be LFP (lithium-iron phosphate)?

This seems to be a newer technology and something that Tesla has CATL making for their Model 3 Cars.
 

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Does anyone know if the battery from CATL will be LFP (lithium-iron phosphate)?

This seems to be a newer technology and something that Tesla has CATL making for their Model 3 Cars.
LFP is cheaper to make, can charge to 100% with no additional degradation, less likely to catch on fire, and no materials (Cobalt) that child slave labor in Africa are being used to mine. Downside is lower performance, less range, and heavier for the same capacity. Tesla is saving money making them, but I don't see much of that being passed on to the customer. U.S. spec Solterra has Lithium ion, not LFP.
 

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I was thinking it has LTO battery since I found this:

.


Toshiba LTO batteries are very good since they can achieve 90% after thousands of charges.
But I did not find any confirmation of that.

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I was thinking it has LTO battery since I found this:

.


Toshiba LTO batteries are very good since they can achieve 90% after thousands of charges.
But I did not find any confirmation of that.

Sent from my moto g(100) using Tapatalk
Here's another article talking about Toshiba's battery tech.


According to a Toyota press release, the new bZ4X (an incredibly ugly nameplate, if you ask me) has a battery warranty that covers 10 years or one million kilometers (more than 620,000 miles) - whichever comes first. Moreover, Toyota guarantees the car’s cells will retain at least 70% of the original capacity after all this ordeal, which is unprecedented in the automotive industry. To add even more heft to this claim, the Japanese detailed the cells were developed with a target of 90 percent of capacity retained after ten years or 240,000 kilometers (ca. 149.000 miles). But how is this even possible?

We already know electric vehicle batteries can last for a long time and many carmakers already offer an 8-year warranty for the Li-ion batteries. This usually comes with a lower mileage though, below 100,000 miles (162,000 km). We might also think Toyota knows a thing or two about batteries, having launched their first hybrid car 25 years ago. The truth is, Toyota has even less knowledge with Li-Ion batteries than other carmakers have right now, as they only started to use this chemistry for the latest generation Corolla.

Being a traditional carmaker, Toyota relies heavily on suppliers to offer their knowledge and know-how. As a Japanese company, it’s only natural they will favor Japanese suppliers, and right here comes Toshiba’s announcement of an improved Li-Ion battery. Its main quality? Being able to retain close to 100% of its capacity after more than 8,000 charging cycles. This means it is virtually indestructible since the current Li-Ion batteries are only able to sustain around 1,000 cycles before degrading below 80% of the original capacity.

SCiB is nothing new, being Toshiba’s marketing name for their signature Lithium titanium oxide (LTO) for more than a decade already. This chemistry is known for offering lower voltage and energy density than other Li-Ion cell types but is capable to withstand a huge number of cycles without degrading. The latest breakthrough Toshiba announced for this technology promises to extend LTO cells’ benefits while also alleviating its shortcomings.

The new 20Ah-HP SCiB is a combination type between Toshiba’s previous SCiB high-energy and SCiB high-power versions. The result is a battery with almost as high energy density (84Wh/kg and 176Wh/L) as the previous 20 Ah/23 Ah SCiB high-energy type (respectively: 89 Wh/kg and 96 Wh/kg). Toshiba reduced the internal resistance in the cell by a whopping 40%, which allowed for an increased charging power (+70%) and discharging power (+60%).

The side effect is the new battery has become more durable than previous Toshiba cells. It now maintains almost 100% of initial capacity after 8,000 of 10-90% SOC cycles. It also permits high current rates for fast charging, which drastically reduces the downtime of an electric vehicle.

The downside is, of course, the LTO chemistry is not cheap, at least not as cheap as the latest LFP batteries Tesla started to use. Still, Toyota promises the batteries they’ll use are going to be less expensive than those other carmakers are using. We assume they rely on economy of scale to drive down the price of this technology.

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Just to be clear, none of this discussion actually applies to the bZ4X or Solterra at this time, correct?

I saw some of those articles a while back and was excited about the prospect of getting the latest battery technology, but we seem to have gone in the opposite direction, at least with the AWD.
 

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Just to be clear, none of this discussion actually applies to the bZ4X or Solterra at this time, correct?

I saw some of those articles a while back and was excited about the prospect of getting the latest battery technology, but we seem to have gone in the opposite direction, at least with the AWD.
Latest tech sounds good. But the primary benefit of LFP is it's cheaper for the manufacturer. I'm not interested in batteries that are heavier, lower performance, and less range. Now, when solid state batteries hit BEVs, then we'll have something to be excited about.
 

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Isn’t every new model 3 faster and with better range than the toybaru?
Yes. The 2022 Model 3 RWD I just traded away today zipped from 0 to 60 in high-5 seconds with a 60kWh LFP battery. It’s easily faster than the RWD EV6 and RWD Ioniq 5 and AWD Solterra. And still crazy efficient. I was getting 4 mi/kWh driving like a nutcase 85mph in Florida from Daytona to Orlando.

Your typical EV battery using NMC/NCA is going to last 1000 full charge cycles. LFPs will last 3000-5000 full charge cycles and they are less prone to bursting into flames because of their higher flashpoint. This is very much a Toyota philosophy. Reliability over performance.
 

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Yes. The 2022 Model 3 RWD I just traded away today zipped from 0 to 60 in high-5 seconds with a 60kWh LFP battery. It’s easily faster than the RWD EV6 and RWD Ioniq 5 and AWD Solterra. And still crazy efficient. I was getting 4 mi/kWh driving like a nutcase 85mph in Florida from Daytona to Orlando.

Your typical EV battery using NMC/NCA is going to last 1000 full charge cycles. LFPs will last 3000-5000 full charge cycles and they are less prone to bursting into flames because of their higher flashpoint. This is very much a Toyota philosophy. Reliability over performance.
Apples to apples, LFPs are slower and have lower range than NMCs in the same car.
 

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Apples to apples, LFPs are slower and have lower range than NMCs in the same car.
That's the trade off I'm willing to make. Cheap + reliable vs. high performance + longer range.

Given the stories about out of warranty HV batteries for 8-10 year old Model Ss and now 100K+ mile Model 3s...


I'd rather have a cheap long-lasting battery for lower performing EVs (not everybody needs Tesla acceleration - which is frankly getting stupid). I don't want to replace a HV battery after 120K miles at $15K or $20K. LFPs will be cheaper in the foresee future because of rising nickel and cobalt prices.

One minor correction. The new LFP based Model 3 actually has a longer range than the old NCA based one. The new one is 272 miles and the old one was 253 (?) miles and you can charge to 100% daily if you want. Tesla upgrade it to larger pack (probably cheaper too - even if heavier). I found charging the Model 3 LFP to 100% did not disable regen unlike in my Model Y. The last time I charged my Y to 100% it prevented regen until a few % was used in the battery.
 

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I’m also in favor of LFP applications since they seem to be safer thermally and have more longevity. That being said, I am not planning to skip the Solterra due to the battery composition. Tech is always changing. I would like to get into an EV sooner rather than later. In 10 years hopefully carmakers will solve the puzzle and we will have either 1000 mile range batteries or 250 mile range batteries that are a quarter of the price, leading to more widespread adoption.
 

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Yes. The 2022 Model 3 RWD I just traded away today zipped from 0 to 60 in high-5 seconds with a 60kWh LFP battery. It’s easily faster than the RWD EV6 and RWD Ioniq 5 and AWD Solterra. And still crazy efficient. I was getting 4 mi/kWh driving like a nutcase 85mph in Florida from Daytona to Orlando.

Your typical EV battery using NMC/NCA is going to last 1000 full charge cycles. LFPs will last 3000-5000 full charge cycles and they are less prone to bursting into flames because of their higher flashpoint. This is very much a Toyota philosophy. Reliability over performance.
Ok, but what about fast charging? I have heard it is slow....
Sometimes you need fast charging...

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Here's another article talking about Toshiba's battery tech.


According to a Toyota press release, the new bZ4X (an incredibly ugly nameplate, if you ask me) has a battery warranty that covers 10 years or one million kilometers (more than 620,000 miles) - whichever comes first. Moreover, Toyota guarantees the car’s cells will retain at least 70% of the original capacity after all this ordeal, which is unprecedented in the automotive industry. To add even more heft to this claim, the Japanese detailed the cells were developed with a target of 90 percent of capacity retained after ten years or 240,000 kilometers (ca. 149.000 miles). But how is this even possible?

We already know electric vehicle batteries can last for a long time and many carmakers already offer an 8-year warranty for the Li-ion batteries. This usually comes with a lower mileage though, below 100,000 miles (162,000 km). We might also think Toyota knows a thing or two about batteries, having launched their first hybrid car 25 years ago. The truth is, Toyota has even less knowledge with Li-Ion batteries than other carmakers have right now, as they only started to use this chemistry for the latest generation Corolla.

Being a traditional carmaker, Toyota relies heavily on suppliers to offer their knowledge and know-how. As a Japanese company, it’s only natural they will favor Japanese suppliers, and right here comes Toshiba’s announcement of an improved Li-Ion battery. Its main quality? Being able to retain close to 100% of its capacity after more than 8,000 charging cycles. This means it is virtually indestructible since the current Li-Ion batteries are only able to sustain around 1,000 cycles before degrading below 80% of the original capacity.

SCiB is nothing new, being Toshiba’s marketing name for their signature Lithium titanium oxide (LTO) for more than a decade already. This chemistry is known for offering lower voltage and energy density than other Li-Ion cell types but is capable to withstand a huge number of cycles without degrading. The latest breakthrough Toshiba announced for this technology promises to extend LTO cells’ benefits while also alleviating its shortcomings.

The new 20Ah-HP SCiB is a combination type between Toshiba’s previous SCiB high-energy and SCiB high-power versions. The result is a battery with almost as high energy density (84Wh/kg and 176Wh/L) as the previous 20 Ah/23 Ah SCiB high-energy type (respectively: 89 Wh/kg and 96 Wh/kg). Toshiba reduced the internal resistance in the cell by a whopping 40%, which allowed for an increased charging power (+70%) and discharging power (+60%).

The side effect is the new battery has become more durable than previous Toshiba cells. It now maintains almost 100% of initial capacity after 8,000 of 10-90% SOC cycles. It also permits high current rates for fast charging, which drastically reduces the downtime of an electric vehicle.

The downside is, of course, the LTO chemistry is not cheap, at least not as cheap as the latest LFP batteries Tesla started to use. Still, Toyota promises the batteries they’ll use are going to be less expensive than those other carmakers are using. We assume they rely on economy of scale to drive down the price of this technology.

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Very nice explanation.
However, when this technology will be available for the common man?

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Very nice explanation.
However, when this technology will be available for the common man?

Sent from my moto g(100) using Tapatalk
Toshiba’s LTO batteries are a really great option for a number of PHEV and stationary applications, but their relatively low energy density (84Wh/kg) makes them problematic for BEVs.

 

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