[Jackpot777]

Green Car Reports mentions the battery differences between the AWD and FWD Toyota Bz4X.

First drive review: 2023 Toyota BZ4X EV is set as the sideshow but upstages hybrid headliners

The first Toyota EV since the “powered by Tesla” RAV4 EV plays well to Toyota strengths, with top efficiency and a thoughtful feature set.

www.greencarreports.com

Seems the AWD vehicles will have CATL sourced battery limited to 100kW charging. Assuming the Solterra will use the CATL batteries, this could support Subaru’s just under and hour claim to fast charge. CATL website also has some interesting info on the battery technology they offer. Though they state their batteries can be charged to 80% SOC in only 30 minutes. So it could be that Subaru is being conservative by limiting the onboard charger to 100kW.

Passenger Vehicles

Contemporary Amperex Technology Co., Limited (CATL), a global leader in lithium-ion battery development and manufacturing, is committed to providing advanced solutions for global new energy applications. Its business covers R&D, as well as manufacturing and sales in battery systems for new...

www.catl.com

Everyone remember: Volkswagen have announced a firmware update for the ID.4 which ramps up to peak level earlier, tapers off later, and increases that maximum rate from 125kW to 135kW. It's just an 8% increase in peak level, but the prolonged hold at the higher rate means the car can charge from 10% to 80% capacity around 23% quicker than before the firmware download. These OTA (over-the-air) updates allow EV makers to tweak things like the useable battery percentage, the charge curve, even the rate of acceleration under certain settings. It's a brave new world where we have to stop thinking about vehicles as having static and set components with locked-in attributes. If real-world running shows the Subaru can be upped from 100kW peak without undue damage to the CATL battery pack, one OTA update will open that up to owners.

For the 'Panasonic' battery options Toyota has in the two-wheel drive vehicles, it's not just Panasonic. Prime Planet Energy & Solutions (PPES) is a joint venture between Toyota (51%) and Panasonic (49%) started in late 2017. Toyota have had years to work first-hand with that technology, they're confident in starting with their own co-developed tech hitting the ground running. With the CATL packs, the Chinese company (as Nko029 says) states it can handle that level of charge. Toyota (and by association Subaru) are taking it in steps. I'm fine with that.

The VW I mentioned at the start of the post? Their batteries were produced by South Korea’s LG Chem. But once ID 4 production shifts to Chattanooga, Tennessee this year, the batteries will be supplied by SK Innovation, another South Korean company that recently opened a $2 billion factory nearby VW’s plant there. So they had to break in their tech too, first with LG and now with SKI, and they've been selling the ID.4 for a couple of years now. Give the Subaru time to catch up.

 

[PilotEV]

The elephant in the room is the battery longevity. It is what is going to set the manufacturer apart from the rest of the crowd (for now)

I am accepting of 225 miles of range and 100 kW charging speeds if it makes the pack last 15 years.

Taking the pack out of the equation of things to “worry about” is important.

 

[StevenH]

The elephant in the room is the battery longevity. It is what is going to set the manufacturer apart from the rest of the crowd (for now)

I am accepting of 225 miles of range and 100 kW charging speeds if it makes the pack last 15 years.

Taking the pack out of the equation of things to “worry about” is important.

I'm not buying the notion that constraining the peak charging speed to 100 kW is somehow improving longevity of the battery. That is so slow that drivers would typically unplug when the speed tapers that low. In the lower 50% of the state of charge (SoC), there's no evidence that much higher peaks (200 kW+) are causing any accelerated degradation, even when the majority of the charging over 100,000 miles is at DC Fast Chargers/Superchargers as long as you don't do a lot of fast charging high up in the SoC. But, onboard charging management already monitors battery condition and speed and tapers the speed generally above 50% SoC, and especially above 80%. For the peak speed to be limited to 100kW, even under ideal conditions and at below 50% SoC is devastating to me. It's frustrating to have to sit and hope that a firmware update will someday fix that. I am hoping that the efficiency will be so high that at even low charging speeds it will charge at acceptable miles added per minute. We really need some real world range and charging tests to be performed, and road trips.

 

[JayEM]

So, did they tell you how long it would take to get your deposit back when you canceled your reservation?

 

[bob E]

It's a brave new world where we have to stop thinking about vehicles as having static and set components with locked-in attributes.

On the other hand, Subaru might release a firmware update that causes the battery to drain much faster than expected (as happened with Apple and iOS recently). Similarly, several years ago, Apple sent out an iOS update that caused batteries hold less charge, in order for them to last longer. Wouldn't that be sweet?

 

[SAL]

I am accepting of 225 miles of range and 100 kW charging speeds if it makes the pack last 15 years.

Taking the pack out of the equation of things to “worry about” is important.

I have had 4 regular hybrids, and 3 PHEV in the past (including current vehicles). Only one hybrid (Honda Civic Hybrid) had a traction battery replacement under warranty after 10 years. If I get my first BEV this year, Soltera or another model, I can't imagine keeping it for 15 years. The technology, especially the battery technology, is developing very fast. My thinking is that it really does not matter if the battery lasts 10+ years or not as long as it does not degrade rapidly in the first few years. For me, 225 miles range is enough, and DC fast charging speed is irrelevant since I will be doing 99% of charging at home. I just need a very reliable, safe, versatile, and most importantly affordable daily drive that does not use gas. But it seems both bZX4 and Solterra are going to be priced higher than initially estimated. So, I am already thinking about other BEVs or just keeping my PHEV for a while longer.

 

[PilotEV]

If they’re going to hit that “world class” target of 90% retention after 10 years, that would be perfectly fine to have 200 miles of range left.

 

[StevenH]

So, did they tell you how long it would take to get your deposit back when you canceled your reservation?

I don't know. Not really concerned about that. Probably will go through with the order unless they try to gouge me. It really seems great except for that peak charging rate.

 

[Soltrrfrm]

I’m hoping to see a charging test to gauge whether the 100 kW charging rate is really that bad. If it holds that for a decent amount of time it can still be quite competitive…

 

[JayEM]

I’m hoping to see a charging test to gauge whether the 100 kW charging rate is really that bad. If it holds that for a decent amount of time it can still be quite competitive…

The average (not peak) charging rate, especially during cold weather, is really important. As many Ioniq 5 and EV6 owners are finding, if the actual rate when charging a cold battery pack never exceeds 50-75 kW for a car supposedly capable of close to 250 kW, then a car with a peak rate of 100 kW may actually be competitive. Reality matters.

 

[StevenH]

The average (not peak) charging rate, especially during cold weather, is really important. As many Ioniq 5 and EV6 owners are finding, if the actual rate when charging a cold battery pack never exceeds 50-75 kW for a car supposedly capable of close to 250 kW, then a car with a peak rate of 100 kW may actually be competitive. Reality matters.

Nice redeeming quality in cold weather. But, I've seen so many EV road trips where the experts charge in the sweet spot of the charging curve and unplug when it tapers to 100kW. Unless real world charging/road-tripping tests surprise to the upside, 100kW peak charging has me concerned.

 

[JayEM]

Nice redeeming quality in cold weather. But, I've seen so many EV road trips where the experts charge in the sweet spot of the charging curve and unplug when it tapers to 100kW. Unless real world charging/road-tripping tests surprise to the upside, 100kW peak charging has me concerned.

I see where you're coming from. It's true the specs as written aren't groundbreaking (it's also not a Lucid). On the other hand, I'm coming from an EV with 153 miles of range and 50 kW peak charging so, even though not stellar, for me the Solterra has 50% more range and 100% faster charging than my current ride. Would I prefer 100% more range and 200% faster charging? Sure! Is this a dealbreaker for me? No.

I'm cross-shopping the EV6. Despite its seemingly stellar specs, as written, it's not a slam dunk for me. I'd rather have a Subaru EV than a Kia EV, especially if the Subaru is less expensive as sold (including ADM). Is it brand loyalty? Sure!

 

[StevenH]

I see where you're coming from. It's true the specs as written aren't groundbreaking (it's also not a Lucid). On the other hand, I'm coming from an EV with 153 miles of range and 50 kW peak charging so, even though not stellar, for me the Solterra has 50% more range and 100% faster charging than my current ride. Would I prefer 100% more range and 200% faster charging? Sure! Is this a dealbreaker for me? No.

I'm cross-shopping the EV6. Despite its seemingly stellar specs, as written, it's not a slam dunk for me. I'd rather have a Subaru EV than a Kia EV, especially if the Subaru is less expensive as sold (including ADM). Is it brand loyalty? Sure!

Yeah, I love the Solterra overall. I think it'll be a more desirable experience than the Ioniq 5 or EV6. An integrated heat pump is a must for me, too. Having more than 100 kW peak charging would make it almost perfect. Of course, I'd also like a powered passenger seat and a % State of Charge indication on the instrument display.

 

[JayEM]

Yeah, I love the Solterra overall. I think it'll be a more desirable experience than the Ioniq 5 or EV6. An integrated heat pump is a must for me, too. Having more than 100 kW peak charging would make it almost perfect. Of course, I'd also like a powered passenger seat and a % State of Charge indication on the instrument display.

A powered driver's seat (and tailgate) will be a step up for me! Also, Android Auto (wired OR wireless), touchscreen, rear seat heaters and vents (real rear doors LOL)... I do already have a heat pump ($150 option), and I can get SOC to display on the screen if I toggle through 6 other display items by pressing the end of my turn signal stalk (odo, SOC, mi/kWh avg, mi/kWh current, outside temp, time(?), and blank). There isn't anything on the market that gives me everything I want and nothing I don't want. The Solterra appears to come real close (will be seeing it in person 6 days from now, at the NYIAS).

 

[Villeneuve80]

Charging for the awd bz4x (same battery pack as the solterra) doesn’t seem very good with that car at least… 24kw at 66%…

 

[StevenH]

Charging speed looks bleak. But, it could be that it's a preproduction prototype with buggy software that needs an OTA update. Battery could also be cold. Wish there was decent route planning that integrated chargers into the route and on-route battery preconditioning. Also, there's no guarantee that the Subaru will be just as bad at charging. Or this bZ4X could just be a bad sample with respect to the DC charging speed. Fingers crossed, I'm forging ahead with the Solterra.

 

[Ducatista]

The average (not peak) charging rate, especially during cold weather, is really important. As many Ioniq 5 and EV6 owners are finding, if the actual rate when charging a cold battery pack never exceeds 50-75 kW for a car supposedly capable of close to 250 kW, then a car with a peak rate of 100 kW may actually be competitive. Reality matters.

Yeah the Korean twins don’t pre-condition the batteries before charging. This feature is a must for all EVs. It’s all software control of the systems. Not sure why all manufacturers haven’t implemented this.

 

[Ducatista]

Recent service memo sent out to Canadian dealers. The Solterra in Canada will definitely be 100kw DC fast charging just like the US. So that earlier publication with the specs at 150kw were incorrect.
However, the car may very well have a 150kw charger on board and is only software limited to 100 due to the CATL battery. Maybe this will change with future OTA updates like the ID4 did.

 

[Ducatista]

Recent service memo sent out to Canadian dealers. The Solterra in Canada will definitely be 100kw DC fast charging just like the US. So that earlier publication with the specs at 150kw were incorrect.
However, the car may very well have a 150kw charger on board and is only software limited to 100 due to the CATL battery. Maybe this will change with future OTA updates like the ID4 did.

also, just to note. The service memo specifically says 80% charge in under an hour with a *

the * says more specifically 20-80% in under an hour. So those hoping 0-80 or 10-80 are wishful thinking. I’m hoping Subaru is sandbagging the numbers a bit all around to be conservative.

 

[Wainwright]

I would be so annoyed if I had to wait an hour behind one of these cars at a fast charging station!!!

I have a reservation in for the Silverado EV and waiting to see what the Chevy Equinox EV will offer. I'm hoping for 350KW fast charging.