[loki]

I expect to travel through MA and PA to visit family and both states charge by the minute instead of kWh. I always though this was an unfortunate metric as the better charging cars are adding energy at consistently double the rate of the Solterra. EA and possibly others realize this and have multiple tiers:

Pass (Free):
(1-90 kW) $0.16/minute
(1-350 kW) $0.32/minute

On paper the US Solterra will do 100kW and thus presumably fall into the $0.32/minute tier. I wonder if the 75 or 50kW derate option was selected, if that would qualify for the the 1-90kW tier. Based on the charge curves thus far, it would save a bit under 50% of the cost while only adding a few minutes extra. Say you do an hour charge which is roughly 5-80% or ~50kWh, that's the difference between paying ~$11 vs ~$20. The time delay would be minimal to save $9. Hard to pass up waiting a few minutes when it works out to greater than $50/hour tax-free "income".

Comparing that to the local $0.35/kWh stations, that would cost ~$17, so the per minute is not terrible either way.

 

[Tyler]

I expect to travel through MA and PA to visit family and both states charge by the minute instead of kWh. I always though this was an unfortunate metric as the better charging cars are adding energy at consistently double the rate of the Solterra. EA and possibly others realize this and have multiple tiers:



On paper the US Solterra will do 100kW and thus presumably fall into the $0.32/minute tier. I wonder if the 75 or 50kW derate option was selected, if that would qualify for the the 1-90kW tier. Based on the charge curves thus far, it would save a bit under 50% of the cost while only adding a few minutes extra. Say you do an hour charge which is roughly 5-80% or ~50kWh, that's the difference between paying ~$11 vs ~$20. The time delay would be minimal to save $9. Hard to pass up waiting a few minutes when it works out to greater than $50/hour tax-free "income".

Comparing that to the local $0.35/kWh stations, that would cost ~$17, so the per minute is not terrible either way.

Solterra owners are probably SOL unless EA makes a plan specifically for the Solterra and bz4x. Konas and Ioniqs had the same issue of being just barely outside a bracket and complained for years and eventually got a discounted charging plan for 1 year.

Electrify America's 'Hyundai Select Plan' Addresses Pricing Issue

Electrify America and Hyundai are offering a solution to correct a problem that had Hyundai Kona Electric owners paying too much to charge on the network

insideevs.com

 

[Tyler]

Also worth saying that some per minute charges are definitely necessary to get people off stations once they're over 80%. I just took a trip down the west coast, where it seems to be per kWh by law, and had to wait or take a slower station several times because of a Bolt, Kona or Niro charging at level 2 speeds above 80%.

Someone waiting in front of me asked a lady with a Niro to move because she was at 97% and had been the entire time three of us were waiting. She proceeded to take several photos of her car while holding her tiny dog before eventually unplugging and moving.

It's going to be a real mess soon if charging station construction doesn't accelerate very quickly.

 

[loki]

Charging queues are definitely going to be a growing problem with no real solution as each person has different needs. Adding stalls is just a cat/mouse game as more chargers come online, so do cars. Unlike gas stations which see regular usage, DCFC is a boom/bust usage pattern as most people charge at home, except when they do not all at the same time (holiday, concert, weekend, etc). One of my regular uses for DCFC is going to the mountains. Of coarse everyone leaves on Friday and returns Sunday, so while on paper there may be capacity, in practice it's going to be terrible.

I think there is a car that does not DCFC at all above 90%. Perhaps an upper limit should be enforced by the station of 85 or 90% if there is a queue. You can set yourself as waiting in the station's app, which then alerts those charging of the limit. The flip side of this is going to be people that cannot charge at home and really need to DCFC to 90%+ to stretch out going across town to a charger every 5 days instead of every 4. I don't feel it's right to kick someone off if they are charging near level 2 speeds for their car -- even if that is comparatively slow.

Taking the Solterra for instance, with only 6.6kW charger onboard, is it reasonable to be blocking others when it gets down to 10 or 15kW (80-85%)? I know ABRP sometimes has me charging to 85%+ to get to complete my mock trip in rural areas. Similarly there are local people who only want to charge once per week, and only can DCFC from a practical perspective.

Now throw in some ego and entitlement issues on both sides with half the chargers being down and we have a "charger rage" phenomenon brewing.

 

[Tyler]

I think there is a car that does not DCFC at all above 90%. Perhaps an upper limit should be enforced by the station of 85 or 90% if there is a queue. You can set yourself as waiting in the station's app, which then alerts those charging of the limit. The flip side of this is going to be people that cannot charge at home and really need to DCFC to 90%+ to stretch out going across town to a charger every 5 days instead of every 4. I don't feel it's right to kick someone off if they are charging near level 2 speeds for their car -- even if that is comparatively slow.

I think the Mach-E wasn't able to go over 80 or 90 but now can due to an update.

I think waitlists and pings for everyone currently charging whenever someone joins the waitlist will be key. I also think DC charging should stop automatically at 80% during hours likely to be busy so that you have to make an extra effort to keep going. Would be super cool if stations with 2 plugs that only allow one car to charge at a time shut off DC charging at 80% and switched to level 2 charging so that the other plug was free for DC charging.

Definitely an occasional need for charging over 80%, and there have been plenty of times where I kept going because we weren't ready and no one was around, but stations should enforce a default habit of stopping at 80%.

 

[Tyler]

I took a slight detour off your original point, so, bringing it back to that, I think Subaru would need to make sure that communication with the station reports the car's max speed as the derated speed, which sounds vaguely possible but something I doubt will happen soon.

 

[md.]

Pass (Free):
(1-90 kW) $0.16/minute
(1-350 kW) $0.32/minute

I don't have any experience, but don't those stations charge you for the observed charging rate during the session? I don't think the Solterra tells the charging station that it's capable of 100kW and then gets charged $0.32/min. I would expect when the Solterra hits that "Golden SoC" between 6% and 9% where it briefly breaks above 90kW (exaggeration, but not really), that you'll get charged at $0.32/min and when it's below 90kW for the rest of the time, it will be charged at $0.16/min. Can someone confirm?

 

[Tyler]

I don't have any experience, but don't those stations charge you for the observed charging rate during the session? I don't think the Solterra tells the charging station that it's capable of 100kW and then gets charged $0.32/min. I would expect when the Solterra hits that "Golden SoC" between 6% and 9% where it briefly breaks above 90kW (exaggeration, but not really), that you'll get charged at $0.32/min and when it's below 90kW for the rest of the time, it will be charged at $0.16/min. Can someone confirm?

On my EA/EC bill in per minute states/provinces, there's a "max charging speed" listed that I believe it reads from the car (it's not the session max). But it could also be looked up from a table. As far as I understand it, pricing is based on that number, which is why Kona owners were mad as their max was 90kW and the EA bracket limit was 70kW at the time.