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2023 Subaru Solterra with Technology Package, Platinum White with Two-Tone Black Roof
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Sky Vehicle registration plate Tire Vehicle Grille


Seems Toyota has sent out a letter indicating some changes. Positive sign Toyota/Subaru is listening and are taking some action.

Two immediate changes
Toyota has always said that the matter is a top priority for the company, and today at 1 p.m. they sent out an email to their customers, making in-depth comments and suggestions for action for the first time. Initially, two changes are outlined. The first is to release more of the large buffer at the bottom, which will mean that more of the available range will appear on the range meter. In addition, you will be able to see the residual capacity as a percentage.

The letter states the following:

"The battery in the bZ4X has a relatively high residual capacity after the display shows 0 kilometers. The buffer is at least eight percent of the battery capacity and is included in the stated range calculation (WLTP). We understand that this is not in line with the expectations of customers, and we are now studying a change that better visualizes the available range for the driver, as well as the display in the car of the current capacity stated as a percentage. The changes will be made available in the future and we will inform customers as soon as they are implemented."

NOW: Toyota Makes Changes to bZ4X
 

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23 Solterra, 20 GR Supra
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I am sure that Toyota/Subaru would institute any changes on a worldwide basis.
(At least, that is what I hope)
With all the bad press to date, they are probably eager to give us some good news for a change.
As to when? Yes, that's another story.
 

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2021 Ascent Limited; 2023 Bolt EUV Premier w/S&S, SC
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The battery in the bZ4X has a relatively high residual capacity after the display shows 0 kilometers. The buffer is at least eight percent of the battery capacity and is included in the stated range calculation (WLTP).
Does that mean in their WLTP testing (and possibly EPA,too), they run it past zero to empty?!! That would be pretty shady!

Edit: Added quote of portion of statement I was responding to, for context.
 

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Does that mean in their WLTP testing (and possibly EPA,too), they run it past zero to empty?!! That would be pretty shady!

Edit: Added quote of portion of statement I was responding to, for context.
I think that is the standard way it's done. The difference is all other vehicles do not have 25 mile range at the bottom...more like 0 to 5, so it's a round-off error.
 

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I am sure that Toyota/Subaru would institute any changes on a worldwide basis.
(At least, that is what I hope)
With all the bad press to date, they are probably eager to give us some good news for a change.
As to when? Yes, that's another story.
We likely want them to take their time - better that than a bricked car from a bad update.
 

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The Subaru buyers received a very similar letter from Subaru Norway (y)

They also mentioned that Toyota are doing new winter tests in Norway now, and more changes may or may not come when they have analyzed the results. If rumours are correct, they tested in an aera which had temperatures between -20C (-4F) and -30C (-22F) when the tests where performed.
 

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The Subaru buyers received a very similar letter from Subaru Norway (y)

They also mentioned that Toyota are doing new winter tests in Norway now, and more changes may or may not come when they have analyzed the results. If rumours are correct, they tested in an aera which had temperatures between -20C (-4F) and -30C (-22F) when the tests where performed.
While this is good news, the somewhat shocking thing is that this wasn't (apparently) done prior to the start of production. It's not like there aren't extremely cold places in both Toyota's and Subaru's major markets where said testing could have been done.
 

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While this is good news, the somewhat shocking thing is that this wasn't (apparently) done prior to the start of production. It's not like there aren't extremely cold places in both Toyota's and Subaru's major markets where said testing could have been done.
True, but this make me realize something, on my WRX I had a recall because the fuel trap was not opening during winter (very often). This morning I went to the gas station with my Outback, which have the same issue (but no recall). I have to use a credit card and remove any little piece of ice around the trap. Never had this issue with our other car.

Also, very often during winter I can't open my windows because they are frozen. Again I have to user something very thin and remove any ice between my window and the door (on the outside). The motor seems weaker than other brands.
 

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I remember once in winter I had frozen fuel cover on my Impreza, but I don't live in place with so extreme conditions so it is not common. But I had to broke the ice, put something under the unlock / open lever in the car and open it when destroying rest of the ice :)
And for windows. I would be slightly afraid that opening frozen window will destroy the rubber seal around and water will be flowing inside.
 

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Thank you, @yalla, very informative.

I like how Toyota is more transparent with how they deal with issues and what their plans are. When I had my Kona, there were a number of initial issues, some very major, like potential battery fire risks. There was basically no communication from Hyundai other than temporary restrictions (incl don't park your car in the garage). Eventually they were all resolved through recalls, incl battery replacements (had mine done at 20K kms). But customers were not happy about being left in the dark. It was like they didn't want to admit anything, as many changes, incl software, were done without full explanation of why or what was changed.
 

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I would like them to add a “soft” battery pre-heat button for the cars built before they add a “hard” button.

The Getting Started Guide was pretty specific about the Vehicle Range display:

the Driving Range displays the mileage for which a sufficient level of driving performance can be provided, estimated based on the remaining charge of the traction battery, the state of the traction battery, the outside temperature, and other factors.
That tells me, generally, that I should expect somewhat consistent, “normal” performance until the range shows zero. Any ”hobble” mode which reduces acceleration or vehicle speed doesn’t generally kick in until the Guess-o-Meter says zero.

If the proposed changes in the GOM, where and will if be obvious in the display, where vehicle performance will be limited.

It’s not nice to pull out into traffic and find that the car accelerates at half the normal speed, or some other possibly dangerous change in performance.

I’m fine with knowing that zero is the point where performance may change, and everything below that is “reserve”.
 

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I don't know about this changing the reserve battery percentage.
I kind of like the idea that the GOM will be zero, but the SOC isn't zero. I think that will help explain to less technical person "look, you got zero distance left! we need to go find a charger NOW." rather than getting into limp mode and panic while frantically trying to find a charger then.

"It's a feature, not a bug!"
 

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I don't know about this changing the reserve battery percentage.
I kind of like the idea that the GOM will be zero, but the SOC isn't zero. I think that will help explain to less technical person "look, you got zero distance left! we need to go find a charger NOW." rather than getting into limp mode and panic while frantically trying to find a charger then.

"It's a feature, not a bug!"
In my opinion "what you see is what you get" is way better, it will be a lot more stressful if you are driving at 0 trying to find a charger for someone that doesn't know the car.
 

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In my opinion "what you see is what you get" is way better, it will be a lot more stressful if you are driving at 0 trying to find a charger for someone that doesn't know the car.
For people who are on the Forum. Absolutely. Give them SOC, let them do what they want. They understand the risk and limitation.

For people who doesn't know what car forum are? Then I would say not really.
Remember the days when estimated range was never displayed on the dashboard, but just the fuel light will come on when it is low? Some car has 5L warning threshold some had 10L threshold. It is because you don't know, you have an urgency to get to one but you are well aware that there is fuel to probably get to the next highway exit.
With EV, your battery depletion rate changes dramatically with weather and speed. The general public probably doesn't understand that relationship. With limp mode, it could get dangerous when it you are on a highway and suddenly you are driving at much slower speed than traffic. And we don't know when it would hit limp mode. In reality, when limp mode hits, you will be panicking because you might get rear ended (is pulling over safer?), wondering when your car will completely stop (should I pull over now?), trying to find the next closes charger (fidgeting on phone map while driving much slower than traffic), trying to find CAA's number just in case you don't make it.

This is the fear the general public fears about getting into an EV. I absolutely think that Toyota's approach to huge reserve is what is necessary to get people into EV. If you aren't on a forum, you don't know you have 37km of range before it comes to complete stop. However, when one person with bad experience, they will tell everyone on earth that EV sucks and never to use EV.

Just have the GOM read zero and throw the responsibility back to the user to say... "yo, you should go find the CLOSEST charger, can't promise you will make it to the one after. Gamble if you want." rather than ... "wtf Toyota, 5% could get me home and back on your advertised range, why am I in limp mode? You want to kill me?"
 

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With GOM distance and %SOC, once we know where in the %SOC each reduction in performance takes place, then we’ll know how far down we can go for the current conditions.

People who use only the GOM and want to avoid getting below 25 miles or 40 km might be better served by the proposed changes to the GOM.
 

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2023 Subaru Solterra with Technology Package, Platinum White with Two-Tone Black Roof
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
The tests have been analyzed. This is what the engineers tell Elbil24:


Translated by Google:

Some really great news in this article. Some things sound very promising and some (for current owners anyway) are not as exciting. For example, the pre-conditioning may be something that is not available to the current gen of car and may require hardware changes. I’m not an EV engineer, but that seems wrong. When a car has a liquid cooled system for its battery, I would think it should be very easy to implement a software button in the infotainment system to pre-condition the battery. Perhaps that physical communication link doesn’t exist at that’s where the hardware changes would be needed. So, disappointing there.

I’m good with them changing the GOM. As long as the new indicated 0% on the screen will mean you start entering reduced power mode and not dead dead. I think that is the best location for 0% in my opinion.

Enabling more than two fast charges in a day doesn’t concern me to much as I would probably never do this myself with this car, but I can see how some will and definitely want this. What I care more about is the charging curve itself. The car needs to hold max rates longer to cut the charging time down. Also, the 80-100% is just insanely to conservative on the curve. Fix that. I know Charging to 80% at DC fast chargers is the recommended. But on a road trip, sometimes you need that extra bit of range to make it to a destination or next charger. So it should not take hours to charge to 100% at a DC station if someone needs to.

Just my two cents 😁
 
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