[HogarthH]

There’s More Bad News For 2023 Subaru Solterra EV Customers | Torque News

There's more bad news for customers who bought the 2023 Subaru Solterra. The initial run of the new all-electric SUV is having issues and can't be fixed.

www.torquenews.com

Dang. Mine was already supposed to be here last week. Now it’s sitting in Montreal.
dealer told me yesterday they have been told to stop taking anymore pre orders.

 

[kingrikk]

It’s clickbait. The source says what is already known - the cars have been withdrawn and customers offered replacements because there is no fix at this time. It’s a roundup of Toyota news, not new information.

The Seeking Alpha “new report” says

Toyota states that there is no remedy available at this time and customers will receive a free replacement vehicle pending a resolution of the problem.

 

[rfrancis073]

I don't think that article is worded (interpreted) right. I think "free replacement vehicle pending a resolution" = loaner cars and "can't be fixed" = there is no fix yet.

 

[FelineFreddie]

It seems a bit inconceivable to me that the existing vehicles already manufactured could not somehow be retrofitted (worse case scenario) with different hubs using the traditional stud and nut used across much of the industry, and “cannot be fixed”.

I’m inclined to not believe, at lest at this point, the “information” put forth in the article.

 

[N2fw]

Anything I read from Torque News feels like those guys are terrible at playing telephone. Everything they post is at best second hand, and their summations to avoid plagiarizing the source material always come off as negatively slanted click bait. They once quoted a post I made on FB that contextually didn't fit within the article and left out the most informative information I shared

 

[Motch6]

Anything I read from Torque News feels like those guys are terrible at playing telephone. Everything they post is at best second hand, and their summations to avoid plagiarizing the source material always come off as negatively slanted click bait. They once quoted a post I made on FB that contextually didn't fit within the article and left out the most informative information I shared

Agreed! I read the post, noticed it was posted just today, but the news was so old and poorly worded that it just pissed me off! I hate people that do this... then you read the credits below.. "this person is a well known journalist for blah blah blah and is credit for many car enthusiast articles.. blah blah blah." Well he may have a lot of them only because its easy to rehash old news, change some words to make it sound refreshed and then call it your own!" IDIOTS, its still plagiarizing and essentially they are getting paid by all the ads we are forced to see on these pages! what a joke!

 

[Motch6]

It seems a bit inconceivable to me that the existing vehicles already manufactured could not somehow be retrofitted (worse case scenario) with different hubs using the traditional stud and nut used across much of the industry, and “cannot be fixed”.

I’m inclined to not believe, at lest at this point, the “information” put forth in the article.

Especially since, it CAN be fixed (they used that wording for click bait), The LUG BOLT design has been used on the Toyota Supra at least, not sure what Subura model is using them, but i'm sure it is being used... therefore.. FIXABLE.

 

[FelineFreddie]

The Toyota Supra is basically a BMW Z4, from a joint venture between the 2 companies at a plant under BMW supervision in Austria.

The wheel lugbolt method of securing wheels is widely used in several European makes, and has been for years, so there’s nothing inherently wrong with the design. I’m guessing it’s the implementation of the design that’s the basis for the problems on the bZ4x and Solterra, and it wouldn’t be too surprising to see a redesign reverting to the more traditional wheel stud/lugnut design primarily used by Subaru and Toyota across their product lines being implemented to resolve the current problems these vehicles are experiencing.

 

[442]

…it wouldn’t be too surprising to see a redesign reverting to the more traditional wheel stud/lugnut design…

Ideally they could use this time to rethink some of their other hardware decisions that have been receiving nothing but horrible press and causing potential customers to rethink their intended purchases.

 

[Jenovalente]

It seems a bit inconceivable to me that the existing vehicles already manufactured could not somehow be retrofitted (worse case scenario) with different hubs using the traditional stud and nut used across much of the industry, and “cannot be fixed”.

I’m inclined to not believe, at lest at this point, the “information” put forth in the article.

I would think that a bit more engineering to make sure that the new wheel hubs can take the force is required as opposed to just slapping on replacement hubs. If it was that easy to do, Toyota would have probably already come up with a fix. There are recalls for cars that have missing welds in the body (a Toyota). It’s easy enough to just say “Just go into the body shop and place the welds”. The cars that had the missing welds were bought back by Toyota and chucked. That’s an unfixable mistake. Who knows what else goes into the engineering for the wheel hubs, especially the AWD version.

 

[FelineFreddie]

Before one can institute a “fix”, one must comprehend why the problem exists.

When time is always a constraint (and neither Subaru or Toyota has months and months to burn on figuring this out), it’s not unusual for a manufacturer to revert to known manufacturing methods and materials in order to proceed with production. As the bZ4x and Solterra are the ”entry” EVs for their companies into the EV market, it’s critical that they get a functional solution quickly, else unfavorable PR will severely tarnish the “flash” of entering the EV market.

Wheel hubs, suspension parts, etc. are essentially “bolt on“ items. OTOH, a body is unitized major component of a vehicle, and missing welds may require full unit replacement.

Having stated that, all any of us can do at the moment is simply make guesses at what Toyota/Subaru is doing, as well as what the resolution might be… or when we may see it.

 

[n6nl]

The missing welds were in the Supra, assembled by BMW and in a place that you can’t get to after the car is built. Thus, you scrap them. It’s easy to “say” just go into the body shop… it’s another to actually do it to an internal weld with no access without cutting out a (later) welded frame member and then trying to weld it into back the correct position. Yeah, scrap the cars, or, make then un-drivable forever and put them in a museum. They were low mileage Mark Vs. A shame, but they caught it pretty quickly.

More force on the clamping bolt or nut isn’t necessarily the solution. A given material bolt or stud of a given diameter will only have a plastic zone that goes so far, depending upon the hardening applied… torque beyond that and the bolt/stud is permanently deformed and usually weaker and likely to snap or gall (and be unremovable).

This isn’t rocket science for the design necessary.

The AWD version has supposedly less torque applied by the smaller electric motor than the FWD version (except in the RZ450e).

One other difference will be the shifting front/rear bias of the AWD logic, if that has much effect.

I’ll wager that the “mistake” were incorrectly machined/drilled hubs or wheels, with resulting precession characteristics, made worse by the more direct drive of an electric motor than by an ICE with some “slop” in the transmission and differential(s) (which soak up some of the impulse of the ICE cylinder firing).

Toyota and Subaru are quite motivated and qualified to engineer and implement a robust solution to this problem.

We (owners, potential owners, shoppers and kibitzers) are an impatient bunch.

I especially feel some compassion for the owners who have their cars parked (at a dealer or in their garage) and are unable to use them, while the traction battery and tires age on their new purchase (and payments are due, clocks are running on the provided radio and software feature subscriptions).

The rest of us will just have to suck it up.

(here I am personally waiting for SoA to accept new Solterra orders (mine) and am quite looking forward to the vehicle and not at all worried about this issue for the long-term).

 

[StevenH]

I don't like the hub bolt design inherently. You have a threaded connection between hub and bolt, and those threads are subjected to the dynamic forces of the car/wheel in motion. The potential for loosening of the connection and wear of the threads just seems like bad design. The traditional stud and nut configuration has a fixed hub/stud with no periodic relative motion (or threading on and off) between hub and stud. Dynamic forces are applied to that fixed stud which seems far more stable and reliable. The nuts see essentially just tension.

Also, if the hub bolt problem is happening at low mileage, imagine how much it will happen at high mileage after the potential wear inherent in the design.

I think the fix will be to revert to the traditional stud/nut configuration if other aspects of the car's design don't depend on the hub bolt configuration.

The big question in every engineer's head is, how did they not discover this long ago? The cars are torture tested beyond what they'd experience in the real world, and inspected out the wazoo long before production. Thoughts of potential parts/materials irregularities and/or assembly inconsistency spring to mind.

It's also curious that all the examples publicly provided of the problem involved the front left wheel. What's going on differently at that front left?

Also, I haven't heard if the problem is more or less prevalent in the AWD vs FWD (previously mentioned), or 20" wheel vs 18" wheel. And have any specific instances of the problem been discovered on Solterras, or are they just being conservative, since the design is shared with the bZ4X?

 

[FelineFreddie]

If a problem shows up on model ”1” that utilizes the very same manufacturing procedures and parts as model “2”, and until there’s a definitive explanation of the cause of the problem, it’s the safe move to assume model “2” will also exhibit the same problem at some point.

I suspect the bZ4x just has more driving exposure than the Solterra at this point, which may explain any observed Solterra issues at this point, but that’s only a guess.

As for the wheel lug bolt .vs. stud/lugnut method of securing wheels, both are proven designs that have been utilized for decades. However, even a proven design can fail when improperly implemented.

Fun factoid: Years ago, I owned a 1941 Dodge D-19 Business Coupe, and one side’s wheels were mounted utilizing left-handed wheel studs and lug nuts… the other side used traditional right-handed studs and lug nuts. I have no idea how long Dodge used that setup, but I’m pretty sure it was gone by the early 1970’s …

 

[442]

Fun factoid: Years ago, I owned a 1941 Dodge D-19 Business Coupe, and one side’s wheels were mounted utilizing left-handed wheel studs and lug nuts… the other side used traditional right-handed studs and lug nuts. I have no idea how long Dodge used that setup, but I’m pretty sure it was gone by the early 1970’s …

My ’57 Dodge Power Wagon as well, I was going to mention the same thing.

 

[ShoogieBoogie]

I don't like the hub bolt design inherently. You have a threaded connection between hub and bolt, and those threads are subjected to the dynamic forces of the car/wheel in motion. The potential for loosening of the connection and wear of the threads just seems like bad design. The traditional stud and nut configuration has a fixed hub/stud with no periodic relative motion (or threading on and off) between hub and stud. Dynamic forces are applied to that fixed stud which seems far more stable and reliable. The nuts see essentially just tension.

Also, if the hub bolt problem is happening at low mileage, imagine how much it will happen at high mileage after the potential wear inherent in the design.

I think the fix will be to revert to the traditional stud/nut configuration if other aspects of the car's design don't depend on the hub bolt configuration.

The big question in every engineer's head is, how did they not discover this long ago? The cars are torture tested beyond what they'd experience in the real world, and inspected out the wazoo long before production. Thoughts of potential parts/materials irregularities and/or assembly inconsistency spring to mind.

It's also curious that all the examples publicly provided of the problem involved the front left wheel. What's going on differently at that front left?

Also, I haven't heard if the problem is more or less prevalent in the AWD vs FWD (previously mentioned), or 20" wheel vs 18" wheel. And have any specific instances of the problem been discovered on Solterras, or are they just being conservative, since the design is shared with the bZ4X?

Makes you wonder if all the testing was in RH drive cars and the extra load on the LH side with the wheel, driver, etc is causing the issue. Issue reported in Taiwan and the US, LH side steering wheel versions.

 

[JayEM]

Makes you wonder if all the testing was in RH drive cars and the extra load on the LH side with the wheel, driver, etc is causing the issue. Issue reported in Taiwan and the US, LH side steering wheel versions.

The issue did not appear to show up with any of the many LHD pre-production models that have been seen/shown in all the various print and video reviews we've been seeing... (admittedly, 3 known cases out of all the pre- and in-production cars built to date is a relatively small fraction, hard to tell yet if it's a pervasive problem or not).

 

[poodlemaster]

There are stud kits for most of these bolt on cars, as when you race them, studs are what you need. They are not really cheap, but look like they would do the job.

 

[BoxerPwr]

This situation with the bZ4X's wheel hub continues to be a mess.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554228598839590912

 

[rfrancis073]

I wish I had my BZ and could take advantage of the $5,000, loaner, gas, extended charging and extended warranty. Sitting on the docks of the Port of New York.....slowly eroding the potential to get the full $7,500 Federal tax credit (that gets cut in half on October 1st). Ugh!

I personally think that's a very generous offer. Go a few more months and the tune may change.