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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)

Not sure what to make of this. I can't see this as being accurate but if so, damn, that sucks.

Use Google translate (or your favorite translator).

Edit:

I want to apologize for the title. My mind wasn't right and I was using 2.2 km per mile instead of 1.6 km per mile (got my kilograms to pounds in there instead of km to miles).

I was thinking it was 150 or less miles. I feel better now though. Would still like more though!

Again, apologies for the title.
 

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Panasonic batteries might be better than CATL ones. lol.

In reality batteries of the same chemistry will be very similar. It's like asking if European 93 Octane gas the same as American 93 Octane gas? Close enough.

A heat pump would make a bigger difference at those temps since it's not freezing temps. Unsure if the bz4x has one.

I'm not overly surprised given how the R4P had a massive 4-ish kWh buffer that Toyota would be ultra-conservative with their batteries. I do wish they would slap a 87kWh battery in like the Ariya.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Panasonic batteries might be better than CATL ones. lol.

In reality batteries of the same chemistry will be very similar. It's like asking if European 93 Octane gas the same as American 93 Octane gas? Close enough.

A heat pump would make a bigger difference at those temps since it's not freezing temps. Unsure if the bz4x has one.

I'm not overly surprised given how the R4P had a massive 4-ish kWh buffer that Toyota would be ultra-conservative with their batteries. I do wish they would slap a 87kWh battery in like the Ariya.
bZ4X does have a heat pump.
 

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I've been seeing ads for the RZ450e popping up once in a while, and can't wait to see another community start dissecting the specs on these cars. Amazing how much Toyota has managed to tarnish their own image and drag Subaru and Lexus along for the ride.
 

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Had me worried with the title, but looking at the actual article, this is falling in line with all other tests we've seen. They saw 307km and 318km. That's 191 and 198 miles. Pretty close to what we've been seeing with other tests. Though other tests tend to have had more highway driving -- this was mixed and with heat on. I personally think Toyota gave range from full to will not drive anymore for the EPA 222. But many are testing from full to empty indicated, which is the correct standard in my opinion.

They seriously messed up some numbers in this and/or there are local conventions I do not know of (eg. "1.91 kWh per mile" is nonsense...that's Tesla Semi territory). I always find the cars tell the best story: "19.3kWh/100km" which translates to 311Wh per mile. That's right where it's expected to be.

I think the real rub here from the whole article is that the battery is not clearly stated as total amount or net usable -- a valid concern.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Does that mean US Solterras will, too? I don't wanna assume
It appears that both models use the Denso heat pump system. I also think all models around the globe get the heat pump (not just US, Canada).

.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Had me worried with the title, but looking at the actual article, this is falling in line with all other tests we've seen. They saw 307km and 318km. That's 191 and 198 miles. Pretty close to what we've been seeing with other tests. Though other tests tend to have had more highway driving -- this was mixed and with heat on. I personally think Toyota gave range from full to will not drive anymore for the EPA 222. But many are testing from full to empty indicated, which is the correct standard in my opinion.

They seriously messed up some numbers in this and/or there are local conventions I do not know of (eg. "1.91 kWh per mile" is nonsense...that's Tesla Semi territory). I always find the cars tell the best story: "19.3kWh/100km" which translates to 311Wh per mile. That's right where it's expected to be.

I think the real rub here from the whole article is that the battery is not clearly stated as total amount or net usable -- a valid concern.
I want to apologize for the title. My mind wasn't right and I was using 2.2 km per mile instead of 1.6 km per mile (got my kilograms to pounds in there instead of km to miles).

You are correct. I was thinking it was 150 or less miles. I feel better now though. Would still like more though!

Again, apologies for the title.
 

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They seriously messed up some numbers in this and/or there are local conventions I do not know of (eg. "1.91 kWh per mile" is nonsense...that's Tesla Semi territory).
There are :) In Norway and Sweden people still use the unit "mil", i.e. "Scandinavian mile" (Wikipedia) which is 10 km so the above is 19.1 kWh/100 km.
 

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I want to apologize for the title. My mind wasn't right and I was using 2.2 km per mile instead of 1.6 km per mile (got my kilograms to pounds in there instead of km to miles).

You are correct. I was thinking it was 150 or less miles. I feel better now though. Would still like more though!

Again, apologies for the title.
Hey, thanks for owning up to it. Now if we can only get policitians to do the same...
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
Toyota's response to that article:

Edit: Looks like they will be running more tests, this time with serveral bZ4X units and with Toyota employees involved.


"At Toyota, we value customer feedback. The concerns related to range and consumption discussed in the EV24 article are given the highest priority.

Actual range is influenced by several different factors. In addition to the battery capacity and the battery's regeneration charge, the use of the air conditioner, as well as external factors such as the outside temperature, will also affect consumption and available range.

We would also like to point out that Toyota has a policy of setting as accurate a range as possible regardless of whether the car runs on gasoline or electricity, taking into account the external factors such as outdoor temperature and the use of the air conditioner with various temperature settings, as mentioned in the article.

At the same time, for the bZ4X, as for other Toyota models, there is also a range buffer, which gives customers peace of mind if they find themselves in a situation with 0 kilometers of stated range and without the possibility to charge immediately. When the display shows 0 kilometers of range on the bZ4X, the battery will have up to 8.2 percent remaining capacity. This value is indicative, and will vary up and down depending on many factors, and therefore it is also difficult to determine the number of available kilometers before the battery is completely empty. Before the battery runs out and the car stops completely, performance and maximum speed will decrease when the available battery capacity becomes critically low.

Toyota is known for its quality and reliability, which is continued with the bZ4X. The quality, durability and reliability of the car and battery are achieved through continuous monitoring and control of battery charging and consumption, as well as total utilized capacity. Thanks to these measures, we offer one million kilometres of extended battery safety, which guarantees capacity over the first ten years of the car's lifetime.

This provides security for customers and benefits the environment.


We recognize the importance of balancing ev performance, durability and reliability to deliver the best peace of mind to our customers. We will continue to provide necessary information and updates on this topic in the future."
 

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Toyota's response to that article:

Edit: Looks like they will be running more tests, this time with serveral bZ4X units and with Toyota employees involved.


"At Toyota, we value customer feedback. The concerns related to range and consumption discussed in the EV24 article are given the highest priority.

Actual range is influenced by several different factors. In addition to the battery capacity and the battery's regeneration charge, the use of the air conditioner, as well as external factors such as the outside temperature, will also affect consumption and available range.

We would also like to point out that Toyota has a policy of setting as accurate a range as possible regardless of whether the car runs on gasoline or electricity, taking into account the external factors such as outdoor temperature and the use of the air conditioner with various temperature settings, as mentioned in the article.

At the same time, for the bZ4X, as for other Toyota models, there is also a range buffer, which gives customers peace of mind if they find themselves in a situation with 0 kilometers of stated range and without the possibility to charge immediately. When the display shows 0 kilometers of range on the bZ4X, the battery will have up to 8.2 percent remaining capacity. This value is indicative, and will vary up and down depending on many factors, and therefore it is also difficult to determine the number of available kilometers before the battery is completely empty. Before the battery runs out and the car stops completely, performance and maximum speed will decrease when the available battery capacity becomes critically low.

Toyota is known for its quality and reliability, which is continued with the bZ4X. The quality, durability and reliability of the car and battery are achieved through continuous monitoring and control of battery charging and consumption, as well as total utilized capacity. Thanks to these measures, we offer one million kilometres of extended battery safety, which guarantees capacity over the first ten years of the car's lifetime.

This provides security for customers and benefits the environment.


We recognize the importance of balancing ev performance, durability and reliability to deliver the best peace of mind to our customers. We will continue to provide necessary information and updates on this topic in the future."
I like it. Nice response from Toyota.
 

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Just went to see my solterra at the dealer, can’t take delivery until all is fixed, with a full charge the car showed a range of 420 km, whatever that means, 80% charge would be 336 km. One can dream :)
That 420 km is a function of the way the car has been driven up to this point, plus what the outside and battery temperatures are, plus what temp the climate control is set to (and if AC on or not), plus which drive mode is currently selected, plus.... (you get the picture).

When I took delivery of my i3 in June 2019 it was showing 200 miles (322 km) with a full charge (and 5 miles/8 km on the odo). 111 mostly highway miles (179 km) later it was down to 34 miles (55 km). Its "official" rating is 153 miles/246 km. "Your mileage will vary".
 

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That 420 km is a function of the way the car has been driven up to this point, plus what the outside and battery temperatures are, plus what temp the climate control is set to (and if AC on or not), plus which drive mode is currently selected, plus.... (you get the picture).

When I took delivery of my i3 in June 2019 it was showing 200 miles (322 km) with a full charge (and 5 miles/8 km on the odo). 111 mostly highway miles (179 km) later it was down to 34 miles (55 km). Its "official" rating is 153 miles/246 km. "Your mileage will vary".
Yes, this is very true, and what most non-EV owners don't realize. In summer my Kona used to get over 500 km range with Climate Control turned off for the check and mostly recent city driving. In winter, and with Climate Control on it would be below 400 km. EPA range was 415 kms. Faster hwy driving (70+ moh) takes a hit, too. So it really varies from ideal conditions to not.
 

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This test pretty much confirms Toyotas response about having a large reserve (up to 8.3%) even though the car is showing 0% (0km range left). I don’t think this is required in EV car design and it’s still something Toyota is carrying over from the mentality of what people are use to in a ICE vehicle when the gas light comes on. Where level sensors pretty much dictated that in the past, in todays battery world it’s not necessary. Hopefully they correct this via software update if their is enough consumer response to it.
Note: this would be the Panasonic battery pack, not the CATL pack in the AWD version in North America.
Wheel Car Tire Land vehicle Vehicle
 

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Whoa! 40km! That's crazy! Seriously, no reason for such a large cushion. Just add most of that distance into the predicted driving range!
And that car is using 18” wheels with studded winter tires and cooler temps (not freezing though). They have more posts regarding it (including charging) on their Instagram page. Just translate the txt.
 
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